Elen (Helen) Verch LLEWELYN 1206–1253 – Whos Your Daddy? Wikigenealogy

Who's Your Daddy?
Wikigenealogy

Elen (Helen) Verch LLEWELYN, 1206–1253 (aged 47 years)

Name

Elen (Helen) Verch LLEWELYN

Name: Elen (Helen) Verch /LLEWELYN/
Surname: LLEWELYN
Given names: Elen (Helen) Verch

Sex Female

Date differences

Family with parents
father	Links Birth: 1173 28 44 — Aberffraw Castle, Caernarvonshire, Wales Marriage: 1205 — England Death: 11 April 1240 — Aberconwy, Arllechwedd Isaf, Caernarvonshire, Wales Ancestral file number: GS56-CC Unique identifier: D899A5BB2DA0AA4AAE5773AD98DC813BE74B Unique identifier: 66D9B33CD7404345A29F34608EEC6DB63FD9 Unique identifier: 89924CF92BED9B4A83ED41AC679045807691 Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Family with spouse Joan Princess Of ENGLAND Elen (Helen) Verch LLEWELYN Gwenllian Las Verch LLYWELYN Dafydd Ap LLYWELYN Margred Verch LLYWELYN Angharad Verch LLYWELYN Miss Verch LLYWELYN Susanna FAWR Family with spouse Tangwystl Verch LLYWARCH Gwladys Ddu Verch LLEWELYN Gruffudd Ap LLYWELYN Family with spouse Tegwared y Baiswen Ap LLYWELYN Llewelyn Ap IORWERTH Llewelyn the Great 1173–1240 Birth: 1173 28 44 — Aberffraw Castle, Caernarvonshire, Wales Death: 11 April 1240 — Aberconwy, Arllechwedd Isaf, Caernarvonshire, Wales
mother	Links Birth: 1188 21 — Of, London, Middlesex, England Marriage: 1205 — England Death: 3 April 1236 — Aberconwy, Arllechwedd Isaf, Caernarvonshire, Wales Burial: Llan-Faes, Dindaethwy, Anglesey, Wales Ancestral file number: 8XJ8-0X Unique identifier: D899A5BB2DA0AA4AAE5773AD98DC813BE74B Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Family with spouse Llewelyn Ap IORWERTH Llewelyn the Great Elen (Helen) Verch LLEWELYN Gwenllian Las Verch LLYWELYN Dafydd Ap LLYWELYN Margred Verch LLYWELYN Angharad Verch LLYWELYN Miss Verch LLYWELYN Susanna FAWR Joan Princess Of ENGLAND 1188–1236 Birth: 1188 21 — Of, London, Middlesex, England Death: 3 April 1236 — Aberconwy, Arllechwedd Isaf, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Marriage	Marriage — 1205 — England
2 years herself	Links Birth: about 1206 33 18 — Of Caernarvonshire, Wales Death: before 24 October 1253 — Of, Chester, Cheshire, England Marriage: about 1269 — Of, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland Ancestral file number: 91SQ-0V Unique identifier: FE593998BA703A48A6DBA561257B7A8C01B6 Unique identifier: 13F1AC5CC4376E4198A1246D05F85ACEA523 Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Family with spouse Robert De QUINCY Joane QUINCY Hawise De QUINCY Anne De QUINCY Family with spouse Donald Earl Of MAR Marjory (Margaret) Of MAR Gratney (Gartnet) Earl Of MAR Duncan Of MAR Alexander Of MAR Isabell (Matilda) Of MAR Mary Of MAR Elen (Helen) Verch LLEWELYN 1206–1253 Birth: about 1206 33 18 — Of Caernarvonshire, Wales Death: before 24 October 1253 — Of, Chester, Cheshire, England
2 years younger sister	Links Birth: about 1207 34 19 — Of Caernarvonshire, Wales Death: Ancestral file number: S2RC-3C Unique identifier: 1DB49A5601D911448CBEB13224786C648979 Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Family with spouse William De LACY Gwenllian Las Verch LLYWELYN 1207–… Birth: about 1207 34 19 — Of Caernarvonshire, Wales Death:
3 years younger brother	Links Birth: about 1209 36 21 — Of Caernarvonshire, Wales Marriage: about 1231 Death: 25 February 1246 Ancestral file number: 9FTV-C8 Unique identifier: 01CA5EE33F7FB24E9937A6945BD4AF14C617 Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Family with spouse Isabella De BRAOSE Dafydd Ap DAFYDD Dafydd Ap LLYWELYN 1209–1246 Birth: about 1209 36 21 — Of Caernarvonshire, Wales Death: 25 February 1246
2 years younger sister	Links Birth: about 1210 37 22 — Of Caernarvonshire, Wales Marriage: 1219 Death: after 1263 — Clifford Castle, Herefordshire, England Burial: Priory Church, Aconbury, Herefordshire, England Ancestral file number: 9FTV-FL Unique identifier: A653D3F975190D45BCDBCB343D04DEAE08F7 Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Family with spouse John De BREUSE John BRAOSE (BREUSE) William De BRAOSE (BREUSE) Llywelyn BRAOSE (BREUSE) Roger BRAOSE (BREUSE) Hugh BRAOSE (BREUSE) Richard De BRAOSE (BREUSE) Margred Verch LLYWELYN 1210–1263 Birth: about 1210 37 22 — Of Caernarvonshire, Wales Death: after 1263 — Clifford Castle, Herefordshire, England
3 years younger sister	Links Birth: about 1212 39 24 — Of, Caernarvonshire, Wales Death: Ancestral file number: 92D4-WV Unique identifier: B47ABB8228C6BD449CF3A54A1781AB3954A5 Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Family with spouse Maelgwn Ieuanc (Fychan) Ap MAELGWN Angharad Verch LLYWELYN 1212–… Birth: about 1212 39 24 — Of, Caernarvonshire, Wales Death:
3 years younger sister	Links Birth: about 1214 41 26 — Of, Caernarvonshire, Wales Death: Ancestral file number: RKJQ-6N Unique identifier: 97881E85B0661D49BA6B82BD00CC6118E7DA Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Family with spouse William CAENTWN Miss Verch LLYWELYN 1214–… Birth: about 1214 41 26 — Of, Caernarvonshire, Wales Death:
sister	Links Death: Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Susanna FAWR …–… Death:

Father’s family with Tangwystl Verch LLYWARCH
father	Links Birth: 1173 28 44 — Aberffraw Castle, Caernarvonshire, Wales Marriage: 1205 — England Death: 11 April 1240 — Aberconwy, Arllechwedd Isaf, Caernarvonshire, Wales Ancestral file number: GS56-CC Unique identifier: D899A5BB2DA0AA4AAE5773AD98DC813BE74B Unique identifier: 66D9B33CD7404345A29F34608EEC6DB63FD9 Unique identifier: 89924CF92BED9B4A83ED41AC679045807691 Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Family with spouse Joan Princess Of ENGLAND Elen (Helen) Verch LLEWELYN Gwenllian Las Verch LLYWELYN Dafydd Ap LLYWELYN Margred Verch LLYWELYN Angharad Verch LLYWELYN Miss Verch LLYWELYN Susanna FAWR Family with spouse Tangwystl Verch LLYWARCH Gwladys Ddu Verch LLEWELYN Gruffudd Ap LLYWELYN Family with spouse Tegwared y Baiswen Ap LLYWELYN Llewelyn Ap IORWERTH Llewelyn the Great 1173–1240 Birth: 1173 28 44 — Aberffraw Castle, Caernarvonshire, Wales Death: 11 April 1240 — Aberconwy, Arllechwedd Isaf, Caernarvonshire, Wales
father’s partner	Links Birth: about 1168 29 27 — Of, Rhos, Denbighshire, Wales Death: Ancestral file number: 91QG-KH Unique identifier: 66D9B33CD7404345A29F34608EEC6DB63FD9 Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Family with spouse Llewelyn Ap IORWERTH Llewelyn the Great Gwladys Ddu Verch LLEWELYN Gruffudd Ap LLYWELYN Tangwystl Verch LLYWARCH 1168–… Birth: about 1168 29 27 — Of, Rhos, Denbighshire, Wales Death:
half-sister	Links Birth: about 1205 32 37 — Of Caernarvonshire, Wales Marriage: before 1221 — Wales Marriage: 1230 — England Death: 1251 — Windsor, Berkshire, England Ancestral file number: GLCF-TX Unique identifier: 3E49896F2CB59E4A8F728A9C21F3538B6151 Unique identifier: 54BEDD4318A8F644B342727637092D67DD4F Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Family with spouse Ralph De MORTIMER Roger De MORTIMER Joan MORTIMER Hugh MORTIMER John De MORTIMER Peter De MORTIMER Isolda De MORTIMER Family with spouse Reginald De BRAOSE Gwladys Ddu Verch LLEWELYN 1205–1251 Birth: about 1205 32 37 — Of Caernarvonshire, Wales Death: 1251 — Windsor, Berkshire, England
3 years half-brother	Links Birth: about 1207 34 39 — Of, Caernarvonshire, Wales Death: 1 March 1244 Ancestral file number: S2RC-87 Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Gruffudd Ap LLYWELYN 1207–1244 Birth: about 1207 34 39 — Of, Caernarvonshire, Wales Death: 1 March 1244

Father’s family with an unknown individual
father	Links Birth: 1173 28 44 — Aberffraw Castle, Caernarvonshire, Wales Marriage: 1205 — England Death: 11 April 1240 — Aberconwy, Arllechwedd Isaf, Caernarvonshire, Wales Ancestral file number: GS56-CC Unique identifier: D899A5BB2DA0AA4AAE5773AD98DC813BE74B Unique identifier: 66D9B33CD7404345A29F34608EEC6DB63FD9 Unique identifier: 89924CF92BED9B4A83ED41AC679045807691 Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Family with spouse Joan Princess Of ENGLAND Elen (Helen) Verch LLEWELYN Gwenllian Las Verch LLYWELYN Dafydd Ap LLYWELYN Margred Verch LLYWELYN Angharad Verch LLYWELYN Miss Verch LLYWELYN Susanna FAWR Family with spouse Tangwystl Verch LLYWARCH Gwladys Ddu Verch LLEWELYN Gruffudd Ap LLYWELYN Family with spouse Tegwared y Baiswen Ap LLYWELYN Llewelyn Ap IORWERTH Llewelyn the Great 1173–1240 Birth: 1173 28 44 — Aberffraw Castle, Caernarvonshire, Wales Death: 11 April 1240 — Aberconwy, Arllechwedd Isaf, Caernarvonshire, Wales
half-brother	Links Birth: about 1192 19 — Of, Caernarvonshire, Wales Death: Ancestral file number: S2RC-11 Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Tegwared y Baiswen Ap LLYWELYN 1192–… Birth: about 1192 19 — Of, Caernarvonshire, Wales Death:

Family with Robert De QUINCY
partner	Links Birth: about 1186 31 30 — Of, Winchester, (buckley), Hampshire, England Christening: 1219 64 63 Death: August 1257 — Spm, London, Middlesex, England Burial: Hospitallers, Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England Ancestral file number: 91SM-NW Unique identifier: FE593998BA703A48A6DBA561257B7A8C01B6 Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Family with spouse Elen (Helen) Verch LLEWELYN Joane QUINCY Hawise De QUINCY Anne De QUINCY Robert De QUINCY 1186–1257 Birth: about 1186 31 30 — Of, Winchester, (buckley), Hampshire, England Death: August 1257 — Spm, London, Middlesex, England
herself	Links Birth: about 1206 33 18 — Of Caernarvonshire, Wales Death: before 24 October 1253 — Of, Chester, Cheshire, England Marriage: about 1269 — Of, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland Ancestral file number: 91SQ-0V Unique identifier: FE593998BA703A48A6DBA561257B7A8C01B6 Unique identifier: 13F1AC5CC4376E4198A1246D05F85ACEA523 Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Family with spouse Robert De QUINCY Joane QUINCY Hawise De QUINCY Anne De QUINCY Family with spouse Donald Earl Of MAR Marjory (Margaret) Of MAR Gratney (Gartnet) Earl Of MAR Duncan Of MAR Alexander Of MAR Isabell (Matilda) Of MAR Mary Of MAR Elen (Helen) Verch LLEWELYN 1206–1253 Birth: about 1206 33 18 — Of Caernarvonshire, Wales Death: before 24 October 1253 — Of, Chester, Cheshire, England
daughter	Links Birth: about 1240 54 34 — Of, Blisworth, Northamptonshire, England Death: Ancestral file number: 8XJQ-S1 Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Joane QUINCY 1240–… Birth: about 1240 54 34 — Of, Blisworth, Northamptonshire, England Death:
3 years daughter	Links Birth: about 1242 56 36 — Of, Blisworth, Northampshire, England Christening: (14-1264) Marriage: before 5 February 1267 — Of, Blisworth, Northamptonshire, England Death: 1285 Ancestral file number: 91SP-V7 Unique identifier: 1760B00F6FE8514D8928D5B64FD3EBA81C9D Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Family with spouse Baldwin WAKE John WAKE Emeline WAKE Hugh WAKE William WAKE Miss WAKE Hawise De QUINCY 1242–1285 Birth: about 1242 56 36 — Of, Blisworth, Northampshire, England Death: 1285
-3 years daughter	Links Birth: about 1238 52 32 — Of, Blisworth, Northamptonshire, England Death: Ancestral file number: V9ZM-2G Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Anne De QUINCY 1238–… Birth: about 1238 52 32 — Of, Blisworth, Northamptonshire, England Death:

Family with Donald Earl Of MAR
husband	Links Birth: about 1243 — Of, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland Marriage: about 1269 — Of, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland Death: after 25 July 1297 Ancestral file number: 9BFT-V8 Unique identifier: 13F1AC5CC4376E4198A1246D05F85ACEA523 Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Family with spouse Elen (Helen) Verch LLEWELYN Marjory (Margaret) Of MAR Gratney (Gartnet) Earl Of MAR Duncan Of MAR Alexander Of MAR Isabell (Matilda) Of MAR Mary Of MAR Donald Earl Of MAR 1243–1297 Birth: about 1243 — Of, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland Death: after 25 July 1297
herself	Links Birth: about 1206 33 18 — Of Caernarvonshire, Wales Death: before 24 October 1253 — Of, Chester, Cheshire, England Marriage: about 1269 — Of, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland Ancestral file number: 91SQ-0V Unique identifier: FE593998BA703A48A6DBA561257B7A8C01B6 Unique identifier: 13F1AC5CC4376E4198A1246D05F85ACEA523 Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Family with spouse Robert De QUINCY Joane QUINCY Hawise De QUINCY Anne De QUINCY Family with spouse Donald Earl Of MAR Marjory (Margaret) Of MAR Gratney (Gartnet) Earl Of MAR Duncan Of MAR Alexander Of MAR Isabell (Matilda) Of MAR Mary Of MAR Elen (Helen) Verch LLEWELYN 1206–1253 Birth: about 1206 33 18 — Of Caernarvonshire, Wales Death: before 24 October 1253 — Of, Chester, Cheshire, England
Marriage	Marriage — about 1269 — Of, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
2 years daughter	Links Birth: about 1270 27 64 — Of, Mar, Aberdeenshire, Scotland Death: before 24 July 1326 Ancestral file number: B3C6-5C Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Marjory (Margaret) Of MAR 1270–1326 Birth: about 1270 27 64 — Of, Mar, Aberdeenshire, Scotland Death: before 24 July 1326
3 years son	Links Birth: about 1272 29 66 — Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland Death: September 1305 Ancestral file number: 9G46-92 Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Gratney (Gartnet) Earl Of MAR 1272–1305 Birth: about 1272 29 66 — Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland Death: September 1305
3 years son	Links Birth: about 1274 31 68 — Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland Death: Ancestral file number: 83TP-ND Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Duncan Of MAR 1274–… Birth: about 1274 31 68 — Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland Death:
3 years son	Links Birth: about 1276 33 70 — Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland Death: Ancestral file number: 83TP-PK Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Alexander Of MAR 1276–… Birth: about 1276 33 70 — Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland Death:
3 years daughter	Links Birth: about 1278 35 72 — Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland Marriage: about 1295 Death: about 1320 Ancestral file number: 83TP-QQ Unique identifier: 69E334BDB884E7428D924BBBB5931E7CA906 Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Family with spouse Robert I The Bruce King Of SCOTLAND Marjorie, Princess Of SCOTLAND Isabell (Matilda) Of MAR 1278–1320 Birth: about 1278 35 72 — Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland Death: about 1320
3 years daughter	Links Birth: about 1280 37 74 — Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland Death: Ancestral file number: 83TP-S3 Links Ancestors Compact tree Descendants Family book Fan chart Hourglass chart Interactive tree Pedigree Pedigree map Relationships Mary Of MAR 1280–… Birth: about 1280 37 74 — Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland Death:

Events of close relatives
Birth	about 1206 33 18 Of Caernarvonshire, Wales
Birth of a sister	Gwenllian Las Verch LLYWELYN about 1207 Of Caernarvonshire, Wales
Birth of a half-brother	Gruffudd Ap LLYWELYN about 1207 Of, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Birth of a brother	Dafydd Ap LLYWELYN about 1209 Of Caernarvonshire, Wales
Birth of a sister	Margred Verch LLYWELYN about 1210 Of Caernarvonshire, Wales
Birth of a sister	Angharad Verch LLYWELYN about 1212 Of, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Birth of a sister	Miss Verch LLYWELYN about 1214 Of, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Death of a maternal grandfather	John Lackland King Of ENGLAND 19 October 1216 Newark, Nottinghamshire, England
Death of a mother	Joan Princess Of ENGLAND 3 April 1236 Aberconwy, Arllechwedd Isaf, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Birth of a daughter	Anne De QUINCY about 1238 Of, Blisworth, Northamptonshire, England
Death of a father	Llewelyn Ap IORWERTH Llewelyn the Great 11 April 1240 Aberconwy, Arllechwedd Isaf, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Birth of a daughter	Joane QUINCY about 1240 Of, Blisworth, Northamptonshire, England
Birth of a daughter	Hawise De QUINCY about 1242 Of, Blisworth, Northampshire, England
Death of a half-brother	Gruffudd Ap LLYWELYN 1 March 1244
Death of a brother	Dafydd Ap LLYWELYN 25 February 1246
Death of a half-sister	Gwladys Ddu Verch LLEWELYN 1251 Windsor, Berkshire, England
Burial of a mother	Joan Princess Of ENGLAND Llan-Faes, Dindaethwy, Anglesey, Wales
Christening of a daughter	Hawise De QUINCY (14-1264)
Death	before 24 October 1253 (aged 47 years) Of, Chester, Cheshire, England
Marriage	Donald Earl Of MAR — View this family about 1269 (15 years after death) Of, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Birth of a daughter	Marjory (Margaret) Of MAR about 1270 Of, Mar, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Birth of a son	Gratney (Gartnet) Earl Of MAR about 1272 Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Birth of a son	Duncan Of MAR about 1274 Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Birth of a son	Alexander Of MAR about 1276 Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Birth of a daughter	Isabell (Matilda) Of MAR about 1278 Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Birth of a daughter	Mary Of MAR about 1280 Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Ancestral file number	91SQ-0V
Unique identifier	8FDF9088508FA6428B95FB364EBDEB3FD35B
Last change	23 December 2002 – 01:00:00

Show all notes
Note	You have asked the $64,000 question. You have the two Helens wrong. The Helen that married [1] John le Scot and m[2] Robert de Quincey was the daughter of Joan. The other Helen is not a proven daughter of Llywelyn at all. You have assigned Gwladys to Joan instead of Tangwystl -- and I think that is fair. It is 50/50 at best that you are right -- and with Joan's lands going to Gwladys family and Gwladys dying at Windsor -- and the Mortimer genealogy going through Joan to William the Conqueror in a 14th century manuscript tradition, I would say the weight of the slim facts favor Joan over the Welsh mistress. Since you have to enter a mother, I would keep it that way. I will change my personal database from Tangwystl to Joan on the basis of this discussion. From: KHF333@aol.com Llywelyn ap Iowerth, Prince of North Wales, and his lawful wife, Joan, had several legitimate children, among them being Ellen, wife successively of John of Scotland, Earl of Chester and Huntingdon, and Robert de Quincy, Knt. Ellen's place as a legitimate daughter of Joan is proven by an entry in Calendar of Close Rolls, 1234-1237 (1908), pp. 538-539, where Countess Ellen is styled "our niece" [nepte nostra] by Henry III, King of England. Recently, however, I encountered further evidence which supports blood kinship between Countess Ellen and the English royal family. Ellen had two surviving daughters by her marriage to Robert de Quincy, one being Hawise de Quincy, wife of Baldwin Wake. The record below states specifically that Hawise de Quincy was of the "consanguinity" (bloodline) of King Edward I: "Date: 18 Feb. 1282 Order [by King Edward I] to the sheriff of Lincoln to levy £100 from the goods late of Baldwin Wak, deceased, by view of Aubrey de Wintelbiry, and deliver the same to Hawise, late his wife, for the expenses of his burial, and to levy also £40 therefrom by view of the same Aubrey and deliver them to her by reason of her consanguinity." [Calendar of Fine Rolls, 1 (1911): 159]. Hawise de Quincy, wife of Baldwin Wake, and King Edward I were first cousins first removed, they both being descendants of King John. Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah E-mail: royalancestry@msn.com copyright

Show all notes

Note

You have asked the $64,000 question. You have the two Helens wrong. The Helen
that married [1] John le Scot and m[2] Robert de Quincey was the daughter of
Joan. The other Helen is not a proven daughter of Llywelyn at all.

You have assigned Gwladys to Joan instead of Tangwystl -- and I think that is
fair. It is 50/50 at best that you are right -- and with Joan's lands going
to Gwladys family and Gwladys dying at Windsor -- and the Mortimer genealogy
going through Joan to William the Conqueror in a 14th century manuscript
tradition, I would say the weight of the slim facts favor Joan over the Welsh
mistress. Since you have to enter a mother, I would keep it that way. I will
change my personal database from Tangwystl to Joan on the basis of this
discussion.

From: KHF333@aol.com

Llywelyn ap Iowerth, Prince of North Wales, and his lawful wife, Joan, had several legitimate children, among them being Ellen, wife successively of John of Scotland, Earl of Chester and Huntingdon, and Robert de Quincy, Knt. Ellen's place as a legitimate daughter of Joan is proven by an entry in Calendar of Close Rolls, 1234-1237 (1908), pp. 538-539, where Countess Ellen is styled "our niece" [nepte nostra] by Henry III, King of England.

Recently, however, I encountered further evidence which supports blood kinship between Countess Ellen and the English royal family. Ellen had two surviving daughters by her marriage to Robert de Quincy, one being Hawise de Quincy, wife of Baldwin Wake. The record below states specifically that Hawise de Quincy was of the "consanguinity" (bloodline) of King Edward I:

"Date: 18 Feb. 1282

Order [by King Edward I] to the sheriff of Lincoln to levy £100 from the goods late of Baldwin Wak, deceased, by view of Aubrey de Wintelbiry, and deliver the same to Hawise, late his wife, for the expenses of his burial, and to levy also £40 therefrom by view of the same Aubrey and deliver them to her by reason of her consanguinity."

[Calendar of Fine Rolls, 1 (1911): 159].

Hawise de Quincy, wife of Baldwin Wake, and King Edward I were first cousins first removed, they both being descendants of King John.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah